clifford schorer winslow homer

It was ridiculous. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And some, you know, lifting, but I usually don't let it get to flaking. So, CLIFFORD SCHORER: In Spain, in Madrid. It was just books on subjects that interested me. JUDITH RICHARDS: people educating you in some way about the field? And then it would've been'87 would've been the class that I was coming in. [00:45:59]. JUDITH RICHARDS: And you talked about enjoying lending. So the logical leap I made, which in hindsight was a very good one for commercial reasons, was Chinese Imperial. Winslow Homer was an American painter whose works in the domain of realism, especially those on the sea, are considered some of the most influential paintings of the late 19th century. I bought theI think I bought the first painting I ever bought, an Old Master painting, at one of those flea markets. Or was it a matter of opportunity, that you would look at what was out there and decide what you wanted and give. But I do see that I have to be conscious of the conflicts of interest, and that conflict of interest also impacts theyou know, I don't want the collectors who buy from Agnew's to think that they're getting second shot at things that I've already vetted and said I don't want for myself. [00:04:00]. I said, "You've got a great collection here." So we went down thereat 13, when he moved down there. So I did start scaling that down, but I did always imagine every time I scaled it down, I would keep this sort of select group. And that's great. If these people figure in. In a wayin a way, I thought every mistake told some part of the story. JUDITH RICHARDS: They don't have school groups or something? I think I've alwaysyou know, coming from stamps, where it's engraved image, going to Chinese porcelain, where I'm focused on the allegorical story or the painting on the plate, you know, the progression isobviously, I took a little detour in perfection of, sort of the monochrome and celadons of the Ding ware of the Song dynasty. So. [Affirmative.] I mean, my favorite type of symposia end with, you know, almost fisticuffs between scholars about attribution. All orders are custom made and most ship worldwide within 24 hours. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Bless you. CLIFFORD SCHORER: There were a billion people in 1900. The neighborhoods that I knew. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And so I was very happy to be there at the moment when they needed the business side to think about things like the real estate, the liability, the employees, you know, the human resource matters, the board relationship between their board and our board when they're being absorbed into our board, that sort of thing. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I neededI needed to. I mean, certainly, Thomas Leysen, who's a phenomenal collector in Antwerp. JUDITH RICHARDS: Your father was a businessman? Winslow Homer Casting, Number Two, 1894. So I go in there, find thisthere's this little Plexiglas box, and inside this Plexiglas box is the most breathtaking bronze I have ever seen. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I have a brother, a younger brother. Skinner had a published catalogue that had, you know, a paragraph of text on the better objects. They just didn't have theyou know, there weren'tyou knowwhen the curator was talking about exhibitions, and why this is important and that's not important, there were a lot of questions that were being asked that were derailing the conversations. JUDITH RICHARDS: What year would that be? I mean [00:02:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: for the field. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, they weren't targeted. "I want to collect from the beginning, in the early 18th century, to the present; I wantI want this kind of collection or that kind of collection? So I went through the whole museum. [00:29:55]. So I have a whale vertebrae the size of this table. Lotte Laserstein was a Weimar German artist, a female artistamazing artistand Agnew's had sort of rediscovered her in the 1960s and then did a show, a monographic show, in the 1980s. 1:00 p.m.4:00 p.m. I stopped dead in my tracks, and I stared at it, and my partner was like, "Oh!". And often, they were strange variations on Chinese stories made for an American market or made for a British market or made for a French market. I mean, you have to be able to provide for everybody that works for the company, but, you know, the company itself may not provide for its shareholders very well. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Whenever possible, I would go to a regional museum, too. I never actually mentioned my age. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That's all over the place. We'll get into that in a few minutes. It wasthank you for doing that." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Frustrating, enjoyable, you know, disheartening. I wanted to have a three-day ceratopsian symposium, which they did a wonderful job of. Those are the kinds of moments, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, to me there is where thethat's the crux of the fear. In that case, yes. I mean, you know, it's just, you knowI think the next time it comes through the marketplace, it'll say, you know, "We gratefully acknowledge Ms. Neilson, who said it's by Crespi." It was not in the market; it was in an institution. And I said, "Well, I assume you do if you just bid me up to $47,000." And I became first in my class so I could not go back. And, you know, obviously, we also value our clients; we work with our clients. JUDITH RICHARDS: The Lewises [Sydney and Frances]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Eggoh, it was worse than that. The Rubens House, the Frans Snyders House, the Rockox House. I'm also sendingwherever there is some scholarly interest, I'm sending them out to museums, so that somebody puts a new mind on them, puts a new eyeball on them. R-O. JUDITH RICHARDS: And he was keeping up with you. I want to talk to them. So a friend of mine that I had known came to me and said that he thought that the library at Agnew's would be available, and, you know, that was interesting to me. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, I have. I've got some French examples. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did you talk to him about collecting at all? CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I don't think I could ever give it up. Winslow Homer was an American landscape painter and printmaker, best known for his marine subjects. Do you havedo you maintain storage? So, anyway, you know, then, at some point, I fixated on the idea that maybe I would do something a little more serious in the art market. If I quit my day job, then I would put an extraordinary amount of undue pressure on the gallery to be earning period by period, and I think that would be to the detriment of the galley. I mean, I know it's an exciting moment; you start a business. He started his career as a freelance illustrator. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm sure it was all an interest in history. And you know, I'myou know, if you ask me to, I'll do the carpentry, the electrical, and the plumbing. Winslow Homer (1836 - 1910) was a remarkable American painter who mastered several mediums, including oils and watercolors. Just a sense of [laughs], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, in a way. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was 20 hours a week at the beginning. CLIFFORD SCHORER: A 110-foot whale, very big specimen. [00:22:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: I bought it, yes. [They laugh.]. I mean, it went from, you know, plastic box in Plovdiv to now, you know, altar throne in the Sofia National Museum via the London, you know, RA show on the greatest bronzes. My father got me fired. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have youdo you imagine in the future acquiring another art business? So he wasand I knew him when he was superannuated to the extreme. Came back to public school in Massapequa, Long Island, because that was the most convenient homestead we could use, and failed every class. JUDITH RICHARDS: Do you see yourself spending more and more time in London? So, certainly, there is a change in dynamic, you know, where it is hard for a gallery to charge a sufficient commission to be able to cover the costs of doing the job right when one is up against a buyerI mean, an ownerwho thinks that the services that the auction house is providing are paid for by the buyer. That was completely alone. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, no, no, I mean, I had particular moments in cities, but, yes. But theyou know, certainly the paintingsthe early paintingsI know those roomsyou walk in, you can feel the humidity. I would not have looked for anyone else. [00:26:00]. Boston. So you wouldyou would certainly read all of those. And did art play any role in that? I mean, you know, we have aboutI'm trying to remember how many photographs there are. Robert Clarke, actor. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It is difficult for, you know, someone who's used to running a 20,000-employee, for-profit operation to come into a 160-employee museum and understand how this expenditure furthers the mission, rather than, you know, a profit model or efficiency model. You know, let's put it in numbers: $10,000 to $250,000. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, there were, you know, metalwares; there were Art Nouveau objects; there were lock boxes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So that was fine. On May 23, Columbia Business School alumni, students, faculty, and staff members gathered to celebrate the retirement of Professor Clifford Schorer, honoring his more than two decades of commitment to entrepreneurship at the School a tenure that started by chance. Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. That'sI thinkwe're there now at the end of our, whatever, 10-year plan. [00:38:00]. Payntars are Dutch, yeah. It was supposed to be a project of six months to write a programan interface programfor the new IBM XT, which was in beta test back then. 1. It was a lot of time, a time I still don't have, but it was a lot of time. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Now, again, that's a collecting area that was most popular between 1890 and 1910, 1915. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, why does this woman look like a skeleton? CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know that these regional areas in Bulgaria were the places where they found the Thracian gold hoards, and then, of course, the national government took it all away from them. So I guess there were 300 Corporators, and I forget, but it wasI had one term as Corporator, and then I was on the board, and then I was president. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you weren't in Virginia very long? Clifford Schorer Co Founder & Director Mr. Schorer is a serial entrepreneur who specializes in the start-up acquisition and development of small and mid-sized companies. You know, it was this incredibly complex. JUDITH RICHARDS: I notice that there was a major contribution from, maybe, from your business to the Museum of Science. I have the Coronation Halberd of the Archduke Albrecht, and it's in the museum at Worcester [laughs], and, no. Schooner - Nassau, 1898/99. JUDITH RICHARDS: ancestry. ", So he called them over, and I said, "This is amazing, but why is this an antiquity? CLIFFORD SCHORER: I know them by sight. I think that isactually, I think five years is November of this year. So it is veryyes, you know, you have to put the, you know, the benchmarks of pricing in their histories, but now that I'm in the trade, which is a very different perspective, I have to take those shackles off a bit because I think like an old man, like every old man. So, you know, you think about the quality of the art, but also the taste choices that one makes at any given moment in the history of the firm. It was just crazy. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Not long. JUDITH RICHARDS: In other words, being generous with attributions? JUDITH RICHARDS: And issues or concerns about it, too. You know, I wouldn't stop. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, the experiences, the moments, and all of that. Winslow Homer. Monday-Friday, excluding Federal holidays, by appointment. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: Were there particular acquisitions that you really were excited about that you discovered? CLIFFORD SCHORER: So the piece was mine, in my collection, and it's named after my grandfather. So I came to that same point, that same impasse, in stamp collecting, where, okay, I have every single U.S. issue, except for these 27. And recently, Milwaukeeso I love Tanya Paul; she's the curator at Milwaukee. I was likethis is incredible. Pigs. JUDITH RICHARDS: more or less, the interest in earlier painting has declined somewhat, but perhaps not in specifically where you're looking. I said, you know, "Oh, come on, I'm not going to risk sending a 16th-century painting for you to do that." So, you know, those are very exciting moments. It hadit was a face of a man; it looked Renaissance. CLIFFORD SCHORER: In Provincetown. He would run around to continental auctions back before the internet, and now the kids and I do a lot. Just feeling and looking at the objects, and. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My understanding is it's around 1911 and '12, yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Maryan Ainsworth. You know, we had a bit of a detour into history because we did the Pre-Raphaelite show, which was a big undertaking for us, you know, kind of a year of the Pre-Raphaelites. I'm very proud of Daniel. So, I was in Plovdiv and, you know, had a good time with wandering around, you know. So that kind of closed that circle, but. I'm reasonably good at language, and I tried. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm trying to think if I'd been to Europe by that age. [00:52:00]. So when I went to see Anthony and said, you know, "I would do this if you are available and you want to do it with me," and he said, "Well, ironically enough, they just told me that I'm on gardening leave." JUDITH RICHARDS: So this is a field where you're not cultivating auction catalogues and, CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, I mean, that's the field. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you're going to thenot stamp and coin auctions, though? And said that "If you don't fire him, I'm going to sue you." I think today the number of collectors and clients is smaller. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. You know, we don't provide client services the way that the firm did back then. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say serious, you mean in terms of business? [Laughs. JUDITH RICHARDS: What's the name of the curator at the Met again who did the Gossart? JUDITH RICHARDS: [Laughs.] So it was sort ofyou know, it was sort of an early-days discussion. Audio, digital, wav; 110 Pages, Transcript. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, I know that. He was a good discoverer. Did that kind ofdid you ever look back for your family there? [Laughs.] CLIFFORD SCHORER: That was based on opportunism, because some of the greatestsix of the greatest Pre-Raphaelite paintings ever made were available to us at that moment. But, yeah, and there was a certain part of ityou know, my world hadI had these warehouses full with things all the time. And then when they referred you to something else that was interesting, I would go look at that. Once the stock reduces by half add in . JUDITH RICHARDS: You saidwhich auction was that? JUDITH RICHARDS: So instead of collecting for yourself, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, I'm thinking about now collecting in a different way. So for them to have, you know, something that is at that levelI mean, compared to broken pieces of pots, which is what the rest of the museum was, you know, broken fragments of pots and maybe some rings. And so, you know, obviously this is a man with probably a military education in Germany. I'm not, JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there a board that you're, CLIFFORD SCHORER: The structure is executive director is Anthony Crichton-Stuart, yeah. If you come of age at a certain point in the collecting dynamic, and you are presented with the last 12 years of catalogues, and you go through them all, and from that you draw your conclusions about what the marketplace has been, and then you make the investor's fatal error of projecting the future as the same as the past, the problem there is that you say to yourself, Okay, a painting by, you know, fill in the blank, Molenaer, is worth 20,000 for a minor work. But what I picked up, obviously, had an impact. So what I'm trying to do is take a very hands-off approach to the sort ofany cash flow that goes into the business is reinvested in the business, which helps us to be able to buy better stock and do different things, and that might give us a slight edge over some other galleries where their owners need to provide their lifestyle from the income. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that a whole collection or just two? They got the Bacon as the plum to borrow the Rembrandt. Plot #10205011. And there was one large mud sculpture of a horse on the floor in the lobby at Best Products. So, yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: Had you had a chance to go to Europe by that time? Any object there that might have a mark. Born in 1836, Winslow Homer is regarded by many as one of the greatest American painters of the 19th century. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, the dealers that I would say, you know, rise to the level ofeven though they're inadvertent, because they don't know that they areI would say mentors, Johnny Van Haeften and Otto Naumann for sure. CLIFFORD SCHORER: In that area, I started reading a lot more of the sort of first-tier auction catalogues regularlyyou know, regularly. He said, "Yes, I'm Jim." And I would buy all kinds of crazy things. I mean, it was something I enjoyed doing, and I would do it again, you know? But, no, I mean, it's. So we had a five-yearwe had our five-year sort of anniversary. Alf Clausen, film composer. And we're not really going to move into, you know, Ab Ex or anything, you know, sort ofWorld War II, I think, is kind of where I get a nosebleed, because it starts to get into other people's knowledge base and other people's territory. JUDITH RICHARDS: Does that impact Agnew's? JUDITH RICHARDS: There wasn't time to look for someone else if he had not. CLIFFORD SCHORER: we made everything. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. Or do I say nothing? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Sobut anyway, I mean, it's. You know? JUDITH RICHARDS: It sounds like it was athe attraction to you was partly the art and the visual experience, and the business history. I lived in Massapequa, Long Island, for probably an extended period; I would say from about age seven until aboutactually, from about age eight until about 13. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, if I fall off a bridge in the next few months, everything goes to the various museums. You, 30 years ago. JUDITH RICHARDS: Are you meeting other collectors? CLIFFORD SCHORER: the Lewis family. [Laughs. As embedded artist with the Union army, Winslow Homer captured life at the front of the Civil War. Those things are fun. And I remember having some words with Mr. Lewis about his mud horse. How can they possibly have a Piero di Cosimo in Worcester? JUDITH RICHARDS: So there's strategy meetings with Anthony. So my father was encouraged by that, and sort of dragged me on a little field trip to Boston and took me around to the colleges. I had probably 65 of them on walls, you know, with these plate holders and, you know, little arrays. Or did you have friends who also had these interests? JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And also, you know, the sort ofthe mere suggestion that the Agnew's family would ever deal in such a thing [laughs], the bristle with which that question was met gave me great comfort that they actually didn't. There wasI would say by the early 2000s, it would start to be multiple deals. And that's not my world at all. Yeah, I haven't doneI didn'tI hadn't done that at that point. I drove to the border and I said, "I want to walk over the border and get a train to Bosnia-Herzegovina." But I'm not going back to school." They'll be in the Pre-Raphaelite show. JUDITH RICHARDS: the visual experience is the key. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is that the first time you've encountered that kind of [laughs] situation? [00:58:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, that's hard. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yeah. I mean, in the smaller Eastern European museums back in the early '80s, when they weren't making any money, and nobodyyou know, they were pretending to work, and they were pretending to pay them, and nobody cared. And I don't have that desire to have that at home, so, you know, I've been able to sort of, I guess, suppress my immune system enough that the lymphocytes are not attacking every object so I take them home [laughs], if you know what I mean. JUDITH RICHARDS: And the Museum of Fine Arts? If you like this aestheticwe're trying to sort of coax the camel into the tent, as it were; we're trying to bring an aesthetic that harmonizes with, you know. I don't think Ai Weiwei would have participated either. So, you know, that was where my role was. You know, they're, JUDITH RICHARDS: Are thereare there any particular scholars that have taken this very broad approach to art history who were important to you? Then we did the Lotte Laserstein, the Weimar German show, where we borrowed from the German state institutions for the first time ever, as I understand it, as a private gallery, borrowed from museums, Berlin specifically. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, the trade was not quite so transparent. Mr. Schorer is a serial entrepreneur who specializes in the start-up acquisition and development of small and mid-sized companies. Yeah, about a year. So [00:30:04]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, of course they do, but she's being, you know, CLIFFORD SCHORER: She's being funny. So they wouldn't let me do thethey wouldn't let me look at the stacks. It's wonderful. And it's not really suitable for old art. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I went to a boarding school, and then I went to live with my grandparents, who had moved by that point to Virginia. But, yes, I mean, I'm serving as the general contractor. I'll happily have lunch tomorrow." And I know them, and I know the pictures, and I won't say more than that. And that's intentional because, for the first time, I'm living in a building with other people. All of that is gone. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: that'sso, and I'm getting there. JUDITH RICHARDS: Institutional history, yeah. You know, it's always a problem. No, as a matter of fact, I mean, obviously, we have great respect, and we like the feeling of our gallery in London, and wherever possible, if we can show a painting in kind of our home, you know, bring people into the living room and have the painting on the wall and sit down in front of it and talk about it. They didn't have any more endowment. JUDITH RICHARDS: So they were very strict with provenance restrictions. I'm at a Skinner auction. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And easy to walk around, and easy to spend three days there, you know. You mentioned that. Is that the case? I mean, obviously, my personal collecting wasI pushed the pause button and. [Laughs.]. JUDITH RICHARDS: In all those years when you were collecting in the field of Chinese porcelain, did you think it wasperhaps you should learn a bit of Chinese since you're so good at computer languages? CLIFFORD SCHORER: into the gallery's living room, or the prospective buyer's living room if that's something the buyer would consider. I don't remember which one. The things I brought into the passenger cabin. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think they have more problems now that they have more visitors, because the doors are opening and closing more, and more people means more humidity from the people. So, around that time, I had met a few dealers in the Old Master world, and I did start to either back or buy with the intention of selling, which I hadn't done before. But you know, obviously, I thought it was really fun to be there at that moment, that particular moment. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And in a way, I felt absolutely noyou know, that was a, you know, the Buddhist gesture of releasing. And you know, we just spoke the other day. So I didn't know himI didn't know him as a young man. Funding for this interview was provided by Barbara Fleischman. [Laughs.] We put it on a trailer. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You have to rein me in when I go off on tangents. [00:32:01]. And I'm thinking, Who are these people? Because I know I started my business in 1983, in March, and that wasI was 17 then. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I did two things at the same time, and you're going to laugh. So, yeah. I mean, in those days you had stamp and coin clubs, and you would go. And that's a big question in the art market; you know, having the liability for everything you've ever sold coming back to say, "Wait a minute, this is a fake," or, "This attribution is wrong," or, you know [00:40:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: Or, "This is Nazi loot," and. And, you know, the best Procaccini, when I was looking back in 2000, was 5 to 6 million. He had that very sort ofhe had an idea about using modern architecture in all his buildings. We've done Paris Tableau, which is obviously now over. [Affirmative.] JUDITH RICHARDS: Did Skinner know what was happening? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Gallery exhibition, or that take the gallery in ayou know, in the direction that Anthony wants us to steer. I mean, weyou know, since I've had Agnew's, I discovered one van Dyck sketchdiscovered, like from nowhereso, discovered one. Matter of fact, for a great deal of time in speaking to all three of them, they didn't know who I was. I don't even know. JUDITH RICHARDS: An investor rather than a conductor. I mean, it wasI remember the restoration process took four or five months. And I'm saying, "That can't be possible. I mean, beyond generous with attributions. I mean, yes, of course. 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